AD So, this is a special preview of the new book, Selected Views. I love the cover image.
ML This is the 2nd edition. It's not quite final yet. There are some images to take out that don't really fit and a few more sections to add. It's a mix of personal and commissioned work.
AD This is fantastic, where is it?
AD This is fantastic, where is it?
ML A little village called Jerseyville on the Macleay River near South West Rocks.
AD Is there much retouching?
ML No retouching, only a little colour in post. I'm trying to get back to the craft, get it looking like a real picture, without too much work.
AD Is there much retouching?
ML No retouching, only a little colour in post. I'm trying to get back to the craft, get it looking like a real picture, without too much work.
AD Do you always shoot on the same equipment?
ML I do now, since I just bought a new digital camera and am exploring it's limitations. I still have my film cameras though. I like my film cameras.
AD You mentioned just before you are trying to get back to the craft - what exactly did you mean by that?
ML Well, you see all my work has been such high-end, highly-produced advertising type pictures I felt burnt out by it all. Amidst the ubiquitous treatments, grades, revisions, re-quotes, re-briefs, indecisions by the decision makers, deadlines, revised deadlines(?), comps, revised comps, client input, client revision, et al and the associated angst, somewhere along the line I lost the the ability to see. Anyway, so I bought this new 35mm Canon camera and I saw it as a good chance to try to see if I could actually take a good picture again - without all the associated carry-on. It was a challenge for me, because for years and years all I had shot was large format film (which I liked very much) - so it was a different way of thinking and looking.
ML Well, you see all my work has been such high-end, highly-produced advertising type pictures I felt burnt out by it all. Amidst the ubiquitous treatments, grades, revisions, re-quotes, re-briefs, indecisions by the decision makers, deadlines, revised deadlines(?), comps, revised comps, client input, client revision, et al and the associated angst, somewhere along the line I lost the the ability to see. Anyway, so I bought this new 35mm Canon camera and I saw it as a good chance to try to see if I could actually take a good picture again - without all the associated carry-on. It was a challenge for me, because for years and years all I had shot was large format film (which I liked very much) - so it was a different way of thinking and looking.
ML In my old book, people see images like this one and don’t think it's a job – I had a whole folio of jobs that didn’t look like jobs that didn’t get me any jobs. Ironic really.
AD These are great.
ML There’s a series of these; how people automatically form orderly queues while waiting at bus stops nowadays.
ML There’s a series of these; how people automatically form orderly queues while waiting at bus stops nowadays.
AD It’s amazing the people aren’t all focused on you.
ML It was amazing because they’d either not notice us at all or they would notice us but they would just look at you, but they wouldn’t actually move a muscle, they’d just follow you with their eyes, it was bizarre.
AD So it sort of evolved, a people study.
ML I had noticed this behavior for some time before I decided to shoot it.. We shot two weeks, two days at the same time and on the same day so a lot of the same people were catching the same buses, and they began to behave differently the second time around. I was shooting from the passenger side window of a car driven by my assistant. Wewas in a car to blend in with the peak hour traffic to remain as inconspicuous as possible. But we had electronic flash mounted on the car to provide light, so we got noticed eventually, Interesting, the second week we did it, people started to cover their faces when they saw us approaching.
ML I had noticed this behavior for some time before I decided to shoot it.. We shot two weeks, two days at the same time and on the same day so a lot of the same people were catching the same buses, and they began to behave differently the second time around. I was shooting from the passenger side window of a car driven by my assistant. Wewas in a car to blend in with the peak hour traffic to remain as inconspicuous as possible. But we had electronic flash mounted on the car to provide light, so we got noticed eventually, Interesting, the second week we did it, people started to cover their faces when they saw us approaching.
ML It just was very interesting, watching this social phenomenon. They were unperturbed to begin but soon becameanxious about being photographed.
ML Thomas Broening in San Francisco did something similar at the same time we did our stuff. He shot people standing on street corners as he drove past. Which is exactly what I was thinking of doing as a second stage to this. I thought it was interesting that he had exactly the same thought, so I emailed him these pics and explained what was going on and he his term for this was “emotional isolation”. People standing virtually side by side, but completely detached from one another. This is a relatively new phenomenon, people queueing at bus stops, it never happened 20 years ago, it never happened when I was a kid, people would just mill around and then get on the bus, and now everything is so ordered. I find it very strange and interesting.
AD: The series of images of people on the pathway are really interesting.
ML: Yes, these series of pictures "People in Motion" were inspired by the early studies of human and animal motion photographed by Eadweard Muybridge in the late1800's. He was the first person to prove that a horse lifts all four hooves off the ground when they gallop. Anyway I thought it might be interesting to take that same concept and give it a more pictorial feel. Hence I set up my camera and a couple of flash heads and photographed who ever might pass in front of me for the next two hours. The results were were surprisingly interesting - particularly when viewed as sequence or montage. I mean, for example, how often do you see somebody ride past on a unicycle? Hardly ever. Yet, there he was. After I did a few of these sequences at different locations they became a sort of visual demographic of that particular location. Very interesting when you start to compare them.
AD Are you keeping the book to a certain number, like 20 or so?
ML I’ll probably only do 25 of them, not hundreds. They’re printed on demand, so I can change them as I go.
AD Did you have a number of images in mind to make up the collection?
ML It will probably be around 60 pages when it’s done. I’ve got a few more sections I want to add; some of the drag racing images.
ML I’ll probably only do 25 of them, not hundreds. They’re printed on demand, so I can change them as I go.
AD Did you have a number of images in mind to make up the collection?
ML It will probably be around 60 pages when it’s done. I’ve got a few more sections I want to add; some of the drag racing images.
AD Is this pretty accurate to the finished book?
ML Print quality wise, is spot on.
AD Do you think this project might lead to an exhibition.
ML I’m definitely working on an exhibition of the drag racing images, there’s so much depth in them and I think it’s unusual subject that hasn’t been looked at in this way. I have many images of the whole scene at the races; kids, people working on cars, the emotion, etc. I'm trying to get pictures that capture the feeling, but are something more than just documentary pictures. As I've discovered, that is quite difficult.
AD It’s all about the people isn’t it, the sub culture
ML Yes, there’s no shots of cars, it’s all about the interesting and rather esoteric behind-the-scenes activities, and also the people of course. You see, drag racing even at the highest professional level is, essentially a family-driven culture. Which makes it very rich in it's emotional and visual content, and much more diverse and interesting from a photography perspective than corporate driven sports.
AD So this is a complete overall of your book. I really think people like seeing a mix of personal work and commercial work, personal work is really key – it’s who you are, where you’re at, that insight is so important.
ML Well a lot of the car stuff is irrelevant now.
AD What’s what happening with car photography, they must be still shooting cars somewhere?
ML In Europe
AD What about in Asia?
ML Well, I don’t think so
AD What aren’t they shooting cars in Australia, it’s cheaper isn’t it?
ML They’re not doing it because it’s all been globalised, it’s all being syndicated from Europe and Japan.
AD There’s a lot of global adaptation work going on here with material supplied from overseas to retouch and use in our local market.
ML Well it’s cheap and they don’t really care any more.
AD So you don’t think the whole wire frame 3D retouching has impacted on car photography?
ML Yes, but not in the sense that it has wiped out car photography completely as was predicted early on in the United States. There seems to be two separate work flows now - one photography, one CGI and of course a combination depending on the execution. Early CGI work here replaced a lot of photography for cars, but the process proved to be slow and inflexible to changes, as in the case of the new Commodore launch, (not to mention the mediocrity of the result), that the design company went back to commissioning photography.
AD Even the photography that is happening, is that being shot on location?
ML I seen very little shot on location in a long while, all I’ve seen is strip togethers, very retail orientated.
ML I’ve seen Ford do some CGI work, rendering the vehicles and putting them in the backgrounds. Nothing of any merit really.
AD Do you think there’s a lack of really good ideas getting up.
ML Oh definitely, it’s a lack of good ideas, it’s a lack on money, it’s a lack of really caring about doing good advertising. It’s all money driven basically. I think it’s different in Europe and America where they can cgi much more creatively and it’s developed into a separate production stream in itself, so there’s cgi driven campaigns and there’s traditional photography driven campaigns, talking automotive essentially. It’s being used in other areas now as well, but it hasn’t actually replaced traditional photography, like a lot of people viewed it would, it kind of compliments photography itself, which is quite good. But now people are starting to realise it’s fine art potential. A fellow by the name of Jim Fiscus http://www.fiscusphoto.com/ created a 12 image digital novella which is a personal story of his, about a craftsman who carves the same doll over and over again. He’s used photography and cgi as a fine art medium, so he’s created these fantasy sets, some photographic, some cgi, but it pushes cgi essentially to create artistic scenarios as opposed to just product images, exploring its potential as a tool for fine art.
http://www.commarts.com/Columns.aspx?pub=2642&pageid=1090
AD Do you think that can be applied to commercial advertising.
ML Of course, if they throw enough money at it.
AD It would be nice to see things move in that direction.
ML Hopefully it might come round if they can stop seeing it as tool purely for saving money and see it as a creative tool in its own right. But as soon as they see it like that, as soon as they start to treat it like that, it will require, just like any other creative tool, time and money, so it just comes full circle again.
AD Or diluted to a compromised extent so far from the original intention.
ML Yes, but all that comes back to the concept to begin with. Unless the art director or whoever is driving the concept thinks of it in those terms and not just a product or idea on a stark background, that's all it’s ever going to be. I think they have to change their way of thinking. It might slowly come round again. Advertising tends to follow art trends. People driving it will hopefully get sick of the minimalist product and headline thing and get something a bit more visually interesting. Utilising the power of the photography, and fine visual craftsmanship to engage people, not just inform them.
AD: You mentioned set builds, and examples of great set builds and the power of craft to reposition the brand?
ML: The example of this I always remember is the beautiful work photographed by Francois Gillet for the Brown Bothers Wines campaign commissioned by David Frost. The campaign ran and was developed over almost ten years until 1996. It used elaborate and beautiful styling, specific hand painted backdrops, and fine photography to create a style which became unmistakably and instantly recognisible as Brown Brothers. They didn't even use the bottle in the shots. Didn'tneed to. Frost and Gillet knew the power of fine craft to engage the viewer. Then Brown Brothers decided to change agencies. Compare that to Brown Bothers advertising now, a bottle on a plain background. I think they have effectively despatched their brand to oblivion, exiled in the wasteland of mediocrity.
ML: The example of this I always remember is the beautiful work photographed by Francois Gillet for the Brown Bothers Wines campaign commissioned by David Frost. The campaign ran and was developed over almost ten years until 1996. It used elaborate and beautiful styling, specific hand painted backdrops, and fine photography to create a style which became unmistakably and instantly recognisible as Brown Brothers. They didn't even use the bottle in the shots. Didn'tneed to. Frost and Gillet knew the power of fine craft to engage the viewer. Then Brown Brothers decided to change agencies. Compare that to Brown Bothers advertising now, a bottle on a plain background. I think they have effectively despatched their brand to oblivion, exiled in the wasteland of mediocrity.
AD Do you think they are applying that a bit more in film on the TV side of things and that may lead the way for stills?
ML Film has always been more like that just because of its nature. Film, Hollywood, does tend to lead visual trends, because of the trail off of marketing, the paraphernalia that goes along with it. All the marketing material has the film like visual look to it, that becomes a trend, the style filters downto the mediocrity and ends up as some sort of homogenised, pasteurised, sanitised version of creativity.
ML A gentleman to mention here is Allen Koppe, he’s a cinematographer, well known for shooting automotive stuff, based in Newport and works a lot in China and Japan. What’s interesting about him though is his passion is stills as a hobby, he shoots these really nice landscapes, he loves shooting stills in black & white using a film camera. Consequently,his commerical work as a wonderful photographic style to it, particularly in his sense of compostion.
ML Film has always been more like that just because of its nature. Film, Hollywood, does tend to lead visual trends, because of the trail off of marketing, the paraphernalia that goes along with it. All the marketing material has the film like visual look to it, that becomes a trend, the style filters downto the mediocrity and ends up as some sort of homogenised, pasteurised, sanitised version of creativity.
ML A gentleman to mention here is Allen Koppe, he’s a cinematographer, well known for shooting automotive stuff, based in Newport and works a lot in China and Japan. What’s interesting about him though is his passion is stills as a hobby, he shoots these really nice landscapes, he loves shooting stills in black & white using a film camera. Consequently,his commerical work as a wonderful photographic style to it, particularly in his sense of compostion.
AD Do you have a pretty strong network of collegues that you are often in contact with?
ML I don’t speak to a lot of people in the industry, but I speak to a few other photographers regularly. I speak to Jon Higgs and Scott Davidson quite regularly. Bruce Allen occasionally. Sean Izzard and Simon Harsent,when he's around. Simon’s got an exhibition coming up at ACP;
ML I don’t speak to a lot of people in the industry, but I speak to a few other photographers regularly. I speak to Jon Higgs and Scott Davidson quite regularly. Bruce Allen occasionally. Sean Izzard and Simon Harsent,when he's around. Simon’s got an exhibition coming up at ACP;
http://tmp.acp.org.au/future/index.php#melt
AD Oh, is that the MELT images? I absolutely love those images and I’m really looking forward to the exhibition. What a great project and message.
AD Oh, is that the MELT images? I absolutely love those images and I’m really looking forward to the exhibition. What a great project and message.
ML Yes, beautiful images. Amazing quality images and prints. It will be interesting to see if people appreciate the subtlety and simplicity he has achieved.
AD How did you start out in photography?
ML I started off as an assistant in the early 80’s, then shooting still life and studio product work. I went freelance and worked mainly out of North Sydney, then out of Phil Gray’s studio in Willoughby just as he was starting to do the panoramas. Then I worked in St. Leonards and freelanced out of Phil Haley’s studio which is where I met Sean and Simon. At that point I started shooting more location work and annual reports. Annual Reports had lots of money, it was good work and I did a lot of it. I started my own studio with Richie Nicholson in Crows Nest which was the old Mark Anthony studio and worked there for a while before moving to Balmain and working with Nick Gleitzman. I was there for 13 years and that’s where I started doing more advertising and design work and location shoots.
AD Were you shooting cars at that stage?
ML I didn’t start shooting cars until '95 / '96.
AD But cars have always been an interest haven’t they?
ML I got into cars is when I was in Balmain. I picked up a big white goods client which funded my interest in wanting to shoot cars. My friends Urs and Jon Higgs were doing it and they were going well and I thought if they're doing it, it can't be that hard! Of course, I soon discovered I had underestimated their talent once again! AD It’s such a niche. ML Yes, a specialised area and what I liked about it was it was essentially shot on location and I like shooting on location and working with beautiful light so it was the best of both worlds. The other thing I liked about it was you couldn’t do it fast, by their very nature, they took a long time to shoot. I prefer working at a casual pace.
ML I didn’t start shooting cars until '95 / '96.
AD But cars have always been an interest haven’t they?
ML I got into cars is when I was in Balmain. I picked up a big white goods client which funded my interest in wanting to shoot cars. My friends Urs and Jon Higgs were doing it and they were going well and I thought if they're doing it, it can't be that hard! Of course, I soon discovered I had underestimated their talent once again! AD It’s such a niche. ML Yes, a specialised area and what I liked about it was it was essentially shot on location and I like shooting on location and working with beautiful light so it was the best of both worlds. The other thing I liked about it was you couldn’t do it fast, by their very nature, they took a long time to shoot. I prefer working at a casual pace.
AD So, nice time frames and really great shoots overall. Why doesn’t that exist anymore?
ML It used to be really specialised here, you know, the art directors wanted to hire specialists for their projects, but then it got to the point where they wanted specialists but you couldn't actually afford to make a living as specialist, there just wasn’t enough work in any one area.
AD So you’d be pigeon-holed as the car photographer too?
ML It was funny as you’d tend to go up against the same people all the time. I used to quote against Ian Butterworth and Lou d’Angelo and occasionally Andreas Smetana. People tend to be put in boxes, it just depended how many boxes you had to be put in. I ended up having 2 boxes; landscapes and cars.
AD So you’d be pigeon-holed as the car photographer too?
ML It was funny as you’d tend to go up against the same people all the time. I used to quote against Ian Butterworth and Lou d’Angelo and occasionally Andreas Smetana. People tend to be put in boxes, it just depended how many boxes you had to be put in. I ended up having 2 boxes; landscapes and cars.
AD Do you have a stand out memorable shoots?
ML I think one of the ones I enjoyed the most was for Subaru where we had to shoot out at Parachilna, about 800kms north of Adelaide, essentially out in the middle of nowhere. It was a big production; we had to close off the highway and have a scaffolding crew to build a tower in the middle of the dessert to look down on the road and we had a guy with a big red petrol tanker going past the car on the road. Two local coppers doing road control who hated each other - one a psychotic nazi highway patrol who was a complete loose cannon. He would pullover girl backpacker tourists just so he could try to chat them up. The other was a local sargent who was a self styled wannabee wine reviewer, who would endlessly rant on about whatever wine we happened to be drinking. AD A huge film set like production with loads of crew?
ML We were there for a week, it took two days to shoot it, 2 days to recce and wrap it, and so it was good. We'd finish shooting at sundown and stand on the top of the scaffolding tower, my assistant and I, having a beer and looking down at the pandemonium below us; scaffolding guys, semi trailers, nazi copper doing burnouts, all the carry on, and I said to my assistant, "What do you think about this?"and he said "Well it’s about time." So that was quite good.
ML I think one of the ones I enjoyed the most was for Subaru where we had to shoot out at Parachilna, about 800kms north of Adelaide, essentially out in the middle of nowhere. It was a big production; we had to close off the highway and have a scaffolding crew to build a tower in the middle of the dessert to look down on the road and we had a guy with a big red petrol tanker going past the car on the road. Two local coppers doing road control who hated each other - one a psychotic nazi highway patrol who was a complete loose cannon. He would pullover girl backpacker tourists just so he could try to chat them up. The other was a local sargent who was a self styled wannabee wine reviewer, who would endlessly rant on about whatever wine we happened to be drinking. AD A huge film set like production with loads of crew?
ML We were there for a week, it took two days to shoot it, 2 days to recce and wrap it, and so it was good. We'd finish shooting at sundown and stand on the top of the scaffolding tower, my assistant and I, having a beer and looking down at the pandemonium below us; scaffolding guys, semi trailers, nazi copper doing burnouts, all the carry on, and I said to my assistant, "What do you think about this?"and he said "Well it’s about time." So that was quite good.
AD Do you have a favourite image
ML I like the shot I did for a self promotion, with a sexy sheep laying on the bonnet of a Porche. Shot out on the Liverpool Plain. It was silly. It was Mike Miller's idea. I always liked working with Mike, I liked his way of thinking.
ML I like the shot I did for a self promotion, with a sexy sheep laying on the bonnet of a Porche. Shot out on the Liverpool Plain. It was silly. It was Mike Miller's idea. I always liked working with Mike, I liked his way of thinking.
AD Do you shoot editorial?
ML I wouldn’t mind doing something editorial, although it’s never really interested me in the past. But now that I’ve been doing this new work for myself I’ve started to have an interest in doing that sort of thing.
AD I guess it’s got that freedom, much more freedom than advertising generally.
ML I’ve seen some really nice editorial work, but mostly produced in America, It’s something I’ve been thinking about, but haven’t gone down that road just yet. When I have some more material I may have a look at it more seriously.
AD What is your view on social media and networking sites like facebook, flickr, twitter, etc.?
ML Personally, I am reasonably indifferent to the new media as such. I haven't embraced as much as I should, except for facebook which I use a little. I think they can be useful tools for cross promotion, especially in combination. I think facebook is such a great thing, which isn't being ultilised to anyway near it's potential. I like to see it used much more to disseminate art and culture.
AD How about stock image libraries and image usage?
ML Again, I'm indifferent to stock libraries, as shooting for stock has never interested me. I've only ever been interested in assignment work or personal work. I like bringing someone else's idea to life. That what I've always liked about advertising work, and why shooting stock has never interested me. I think image usage is very important. I'll never give usage away for free, I may discount it or package it depending on the circumstance - but I'll never give it away.
Like they say- a servant's worth is higher. People wouldn't expect their servant to work for nothing - why should they expect their (my) pictures to?
AD What would you say are your greatest influences?
ML Harry DeZitter was my main influence early on. Also Clint Clemens, particularly when it came to cars. Both had a wonderful way of capturing the light, which appealed to me very much.
ML I wouldn’t mind doing something editorial, although it’s never really interested me in the past. But now that I’ve been doing this new work for myself I’ve started to have an interest in doing that sort of thing.
AD I guess it’s got that freedom, much more freedom than advertising generally.
ML I’ve seen some really nice editorial work, but mostly produced in America, It’s something I’ve been thinking about, but haven’t gone down that road just yet. When I have some more material I may have a look at it more seriously.
AD What is your view on social media and networking sites like facebook, flickr, twitter, etc.?
ML Personally, I am reasonably indifferent to the new media as such. I haven't embraced as much as I should, except for facebook which I use a little. I think they can be useful tools for cross promotion, especially in combination. I think facebook is such a great thing, which isn't being ultilised to anyway near it's potential. I like to see it used much more to disseminate art and culture.
AD How about stock image libraries and image usage?
ML Again, I'm indifferent to stock libraries, as shooting for stock has never interested me. I've only ever been interested in assignment work or personal work. I like bringing someone else's idea to life. That what I've always liked about advertising work, and why shooting stock has never interested me. I think image usage is very important. I'll never give usage away for free, I may discount it or package it depending on the circumstance - but I'll never give it away.
Like they say- a servant's worth is higher. People wouldn't expect their servant to work for nothing - why should they expect their (my) pictures to?
AD What would you say are your greatest influences?
ML Harry DeZitter was my main influence early on. Also Clint Clemens, particularly when it came to cars. Both had a wonderful way of capturing the light, which appealed to me very much.
"Quality and quanity of light, thats the magic – understanding where it comes from, especially the ambient light and fusing it with flash. To me the ambient light is always the hero, the dominating factor."
"Light moves through a shot. It has a force. It pushes into something. I use the dynamics of light to bring you into the picture. It's like a vacuum which can suck you right in."
– Clint Clemens 1983
http://www.clintclemens.com/
AD Any advice for anyone contemplating photography as a career?
ML I think it’s to your advantage to have a good technical knowledge, particularly for when things go pear shaped, that’s when you really earn your money. Anyone can take a good picture when things are going well, but when things are going shit, that’s when you want to know what's going on.
AD You hit a brick wall
ML Exactly right. Unless you understand why things aren’t working you might not be able to fix them and ultimately it’s your job to fix them, that’s what your client’s paying for. So, shoot as much stuff for yourself, 'cause all the good jobs I’ve ever got have come off a shot I’ve done for myself, ironically. I’ve never done near as much as I should have over the years, so that would be advice, be prolific. Just shoot as much as you can and constantly and have good technical knowledge. Definitely worth learning why things happen to use it to your advantage and make better pictures. And, be persistent.
– Clint Clemens 1983
http://www.clintclemens.com/
AD Any advice for anyone contemplating photography as a career?
ML I think it’s to your advantage to have a good technical knowledge, particularly for when things go pear shaped, that’s when you really earn your money. Anyone can take a good picture when things are going well, but when things are going shit, that’s when you want to know what's going on.
AD You hit a brick wall
ML Exactly right. Unless you understand why things aren’t working you might not be able to fix them and ultimately it’s your job to fix them, that’s what your client’s paying for. So, shoot as much stuff for yourself, 'cause all the good jobs I’ve ever got have come off a shot I’ve done for myself, ironically. I’ve never done near as much as I should have over the years, so that would be advice, be prolific. Just shoot as much as you can and constantly and have good technical knowledge. Definitely worth learning why things happen to use it to your advantage and make better pictures. And, be persistent.
AD Would you recommend photography as a career?
ML I tend to say not, but if you really want to do it, you’re going to do what you really want to do anyway. Anyway, who am i to say? I’m still doing it and I really should be doing something else. If commonsense prevailed I’d be doing something else. Pity nothing else really interests me. An Art Director told me many years ago to look for inspiration overseas, the work that is happening overseas, that’s where a lot of the great work is. It’s really important to stay across what's happening overseas, particularly now it’s really easy with the net and networking sites. Before we relied on books and journals and now it’s instant, you can see what anyone is doing anywhere in the world. Everything is such a cross pollination now.
AD What’s next?
ML Personal projects will take up the majority of my time for the next 3 to 4 months. I'm hoping to launch the drag racing images later next year. I want to shoot some more big race meetings and try to get a more extensive collection of material before I show it.
AD: Looking forward to seeing more of them!
AD: Thanks Mark
All Images © Mark Llewellynn
MARK LLEWELLYNN
AD: Thanks Mark
All Images © Mark Llewellynn
MARK LLEWELLYNN
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